Overseeing fire and emergency services across Australia’s largest State is no small feat. It’s not a 9 to 5, Monday to Friday job because emergencies don’t keep business hours. When critical decisions need to be made, the Fire and Emergency Services Commissioner is always on call. It’s a role Darren Klemm AFSM has held since 2017 and in that time, he has led DFES through major change and growth. In his own words, team is the heart of DFES. And Darren has been a team player for decades. On the frontline as a firefighter and before that on the field as a premiership star in the WA Football League. Hear about the surprising role the Commissioner could see himself in if he weren’t in the top job and the biggest changes he’s witnessed in his career.
Overseeing fire and emergency services across Australia’s largest State is no small feat. It’s not a 9 to 5, Monday to Friday job because emergencies don’t keep business hours.
When critical decisions need to be made, the Fire and Emergency Services Commissioner is always on call.
It’s a role Darren Klemm AFSM has held since 2017 and in that time, he has led DFES through major change and growth.
In his own words, team is the heart of DFES. And Darren has been a team player for decades.
On the frontline as a firefighter and before that on the field as a premiership star in the WA Football League.
Hear about the surprising role the Commissioner could see himself in if he weren’t in the top job and the biggest changes he’s witnessed in his career.
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Credits:
Host and producer: Silvana Pulitano
Guest: Darren Klemm
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Transcript:
For a full transcript of this episode, visit: https://bit.ly/42c6Kko
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This episode may contain reference to traumatic events. Listener discretion is advised.
Visit https://www.dfes.wa.gov.au/copyright for copyright information.
[Silvana Pulitano, Podcast Host] You're listening to Mics and Sirens, the official podcast of the Department of Fire and Emergency Services in Western Australia. DFES acknowledges the traditional owners on the land on which this podcast is created, the Whadjuk people.
[Sirens sound while news footage of fires play]
[Darren Klemm AFSM, Fire and Emergency Services Commissioner] Seeing really good outcomes for community are the good days. I think people call us often at the worst time that they may experience in their lives. The role is something that you're always thinking about, whether you're actually at work or not. There's always things rolling around in your head about how you can make things better or some of the particular challenges you might be dealing with at the time. It can be quite daunting as the realisation hits you that you have actually got all this responsibility now. What I feel has served me well during my career is be prepared to put yourself out there.
[Silvana] If you weren't Commissioner or if you never became a firefighter, is there another job that you could see yourself doing?
[Commissioner] Well, yeah.
[Silvana] Overseeing fire and emergency services across Australia's largest State is no small feat. It's not a 9-5 Monday to Friday job, because emergencies don't keep business hours. When critical decisions need to be made, the Fire and Emergency Services Commissioner is always on call. It's a role Darren Klemm has held since 2017, and in that time, he's led DFES through major change and growth. In his own words, team is the heart of DFES, and Darren Klemm has been a team player for decades, on the frontline as a firefighter and, before that, on the field as a premiership star in the WA Football League. I sat down with the Commissioner to hear his insights into how things have changed, and what it really means to lead the Department tasked with keeping Western Australians safe before, during and after emergencies. Commissioner, welcome.
[Commissioner] Thank you.
[Silvana] You've been in Fire and Emergency Services for more than 35 years now. No doubt a lot has changed in that time. What are some of the biggest changes that you have seen?
[Commissioner] Look, I think certainly, the changing climate is a key part of it. What we're seeing certainly with bushfires and the weather generally, are the changes that have made the role of a fire and emergency service worker, be they a volunteer or a career firefighter, far more complex than it was perhaps when I started.
I think probably the second thing is just the expectation from community around the interface between fire and emergency services and the community when things are going on. So that thirst for information, either through Emergency WA, through all the warnings that we put out, the DFES digital media part of it. The community want to know, and they want to know now, in terms of what's happening in their particular area so that they can make decisions. And it shouldn't be seen as a negative. It's a real positive. But it does place extra pressures on organisations such as DFES to make sure that we're getting that advice out in a timely manner.
[Silvana] What inspired you to pursue a career in emergency management? You started as a firefighter in 1990.
[Commissioner] Yeah, a long time ago. Look, I was actually over in Adelaide, living there. I'm from Western Australia originally and over in Adelaide, and I was playing some football. And it felt like about half the football team were in the fire brigade at the time. And so, I perhaps didn't have, at that point in time, have a career that I felt that I was going to be doing for the rest of my working life. So, it seemed pretty attractive at the time. And yeah, and I ended up putting in and got in. And then after three years or so, came back to Western Australia.
[Silvana] Do you remember what your first day was like on the fire station?
[Commissioner] Oh, look, I don't imagine it's too different from... [Laughs] Are you suggesting it's a long time ago, Silvana, is that what you're saying?
[Silvana] Just.
[Commissioner] [Laughs] Look, I don't imagine it's too different from what new recruits experience in these days. Probably, these days, they get eased into the shift-based life a little bit more than perhaps we did back in the day. We were probably just dropped on shift. I do recall our first night shift that there was a lot of stress about not being ready to go at 2 o'clock in the morning or something like that in case there was a call, because you certainly don't want to miss a call. You don't want the truck leaving without you on it. So I do recall us.... I think we kept ourselves busy for most of the night so that we were ready to go at a moment's notice.
[Silvana] What was that transition like going from a firefighter to commissioner?
[Commissioner] Yeah, it was certainly over a long period of time. And I just think I had, certainly at the time when I left, working shift work, which was around about 2001, 2002, somewhere around there. I just wanted to do some different things. I certainly enjoyed the shift-based life as a firefighter. Certainly, plenty of challenges in that environment. But, yeah, I did want to do some different things. And I guess that's also one of the key changes we've seen with the model that we have here in Western Australia with the Department of Fire and Emergency Services, is a broad remit means that there are such a broad range of things that you can do, if you so choose.
[Silvana] Do you get any days off as the Commissioner? [Laughs]
[Commissioner] Oh, look, certainly our High Threat Period of which seems to be getting longer, that's a real seven-day-a-week role during that five or six months. Outside of that, like most people in our organisation, during some of the winter months, we try and clear a bit of leave and have a bit of a break. So, perhaps that six months is pretty full on. It's certainly seven days a week.
I think the role is something that you're always thinking about. Whether you're actually at work or not, there's always things rolling around in your head about how you can make things better or some of the particular challenges you might be dealing with at the time. So, yeah, I say to some of my people on Corporate Executive that it's a bit of a lifestyle rather than a job. And it's not forever either. So, yeah, we have a bit of a laugh about that.
[Silvana] Do you remember what your first day as Fire and Emergency Services Commissioner was like?
[Commissioner] Yeah, pretty daunting. I'd obviously watched Wayne Gregson in that role for a number of years. And we went through pretty extensive handover period in the first week or so, and even in a couple of days leading up. But certainly, the first day, just the sheer volume of what you had to deal with and that sense of responsibility. I think when you sit in the seat for the first time, when you're actually physically sitting in the seat in that office, there's probably that point of time or there was that point of time where it can be quite daunting as the realisation hits you that you have actually got all this responsibility now. Yeah.
[Silvana] So you lead more than 1,600 operational and corporate staff. You work with more than 26,000 volunteers. What are some of the challenges that you have faced in working with such a big group?
[Commissioner] Well, look, the size of the State certainly makes things pretty complex. We have a fantastic mix of career and volunteer firefighters and State Emergency Services personnel, Marine Rescue. And then, of course, all our senior officers who do such a great job from an emergency management point of view. Bringing all that together is probably the challenge. I think that I would call out - there's always different motivations that people have and the community have in terms of what their needs are. So, bringing those people together and motivating them to make sure that we're serving the community in the best way that we can is probably one of the key challenges. I think we've had some successes along the way where - Wooroloo comes to mind - the management of bushfires, in terms of your ability to influence the outcome of bushfire in the response phase is far greater than what it is for a cyclone, because the cyclone is going to do what it does. And then you - it really becomes a matter of managing the consequences of it. So, certainly, the different hazards that we deal with provide different challenges. But sort of marshalling and motivating that workforce is one of them.
[Silvana] So, in addition to your role as Fire and Emergency Services Commissioner, you're also the president of AFAC. Can you talk about AFAC and your role as president?
[Commissioner] Yeah. So, AFAC's made up - it's essentially the Fire and Emergency Services Council of all the different members, 33 different members across Australia and New Zealand, all in that fire and emergency services sector. And one of the reasons why I'm so heavily involved in AFAC is because of just how remote Western Australia is. So, one of the things that our people miss out on is what New South Wales, the ACT and Victoria and Queensland get to do every day. Their border's very close. The population's right there, and they can interface with people doing things differently on a daily, if not a weekly basis. And we just don't get that. Our people don't because of how far away we are. So any opportunities we've got to get people involved in the collaboration groups of AFAC, which is a real strength, where we get people who work in HR, we get people who are in fire investigation or built environment branch, get them together on a regular basis so that they can share their experiences and knowledge of how they might do things slightly differently. And it also is one of the reasons why we always try and take the opportunity to send people interstate on deployments and these sorts of things, just so that they can experience different ways of doing things and bring that back.
[Silvana] So you've seen a lot of emerging technology and innovation through your visits to these other places. What are some of the new things that you've seen that excite you the most?
[Commissioner] Oh, look, I think artificial intelligence is - people want to know. So if we go back to what I said earlier about the community want to know, they're expecting us to know where the fire's going to be in 12 hours' time. And some of those predictive tools, which we've had for a little while, but in terms of the advancements that we're seeing now and we're going to see in the future in terms of the accuracy of that, I think, is pretty exciting.
I think the benefits of some of the robotics from a safety point of view. I think some of the - you know, certainly, the battery systems that we're seeing out there now and the impacts of that, of combating them when they're on fire. If we can be doing things with robotics in the future and the enhancements for safety of our first responders are going to be significant. I think we've seen some improvements in that in recent times, but there is much more to be done. And I think some of these new technologies are going to provide those opportunities.
[Silvana] Where do see emergency services in, say, ten years' time. Do we see a lot of these things being implemented?
[Commissioner] Yeah. Look, I think we do. There's certainly a lot of work going on on some of these predictive tools now around events, and certainly flooding, and bushfire in particular. Those challenges, they will be made more challenging by expectations. I think we - look back where we were 15, 20 years ago, the expectations from both community and government around the ability of the fire and emergency services sector to deal with the more intense events that we're seeing as a result of a changing climate. It's not the only reason, but it's one of them. Meeting those expectations, I think, for us going forward is going to be one of the challenges that we're faced with. Certainly, the technology piece has a role, has a really key role. But ultimately, sometimes with the weather, you don't always get what you thought you were going to get. And dealing with those variables is challenging.
[Silvana] I guess that's something that you face a lot in your role in emergency services. You rely on Mother Nature, but that's beyond your control. So how do you deal with that?
[Commissioner] Yeah. So preparations are key with that. So we do - what we do now compared to what we did 20 years ago in terms of prep work, when we know that we've got events coming in, whether it's a cyclone or bad fire weather, storms and these sorts of things is the pre-deployment of personnel, the prep work that goes into local or regions where we know we need to have a greater presence - a greater resource presence to deal with the impacts. We are so much better at that. We're so much more thorough in terms of what we do. We need to do more. We continue to do more, but it helps to deal with the unpredictable nature of weather.
[Silvana] You touched on this earlier. DFES is quite different to other jurisdictions in Australia, where all the hazards fall under the same umbrella. How do you manage all those different areas?
[Commissioner] Yeah. Look, it's about bringing those with the expertise in those particular areas to bear, whether it's a bushfire or a cyclone or a storm or whatever it happens to be, we use people who have expertise in those areas. That's one part of it. The second part of it is that, largely, the EM components or the emergency management components of these events are - they're very much similar. So we're not expecting at that level, at the higher level, for our people to be doing anything markedly different, from an emergency management point of view to manage the very high-level parts of a bushfire as opposed to a cyclone or a storm event or whatever it happens to be, or flooding. So that has real benefits in terms of making sure that our - the various parts of our business are operating the same way.
[Male Narrator] 15 minutes can seem insignificant. But here at the Department of Fire and Emergency. Services, we know a bushfire can destroy your home or block your exit route, in as little as 15 minutes. The 15 minutes it takes to make a bushfire plan is the best way to keep you and your household safe. Got 15 minutes to burn? Go to mybushfireplan.wa.gov.au to start yours today.
[Silvana] This is Mics and Sirens, and I'm sitting down with the Fire and Emergency Services Commissioner. You've achieved a lot in your eight years as Commissioner. What is something that you - or what are the things that you are most proud of?
[Commissioner] We went through a bit of a change in 2018 across the broader public sector in Western Australia. And we were part of that, some of those machinery of government changes that saw us create the Rural Fire Division. The Bushfire Centre of Excellence was certainly a great - and still is - and a developing facility down in the south of Perth. So really proud of that.
We've done a lot of work around female recruitment. There's always more to do in that space. And that's not just for career firefighters but broadly throughout the organisation. Look, we've worked really hard to build mutual respect across the different groups within DFES. We know that we've got volunteer firefighters, career firefighters, Marine Rescue volunteers, SES volunteers.
So making sure that everybody understands and respects what other people bring to the table is really important to me, because some people from a volunteering point of view can do an hour a week, and others can do 50 hours a week. Whatever you can bring to the table, it doesn't devalue the effort that you're putting in. And so mutual respect across those different services is something that we've worked really hard on. And so have those people, and it's a credit to them that we stand where we are today.
[Silvana] I guess from the outside, you get this feeling that there's this sense of team spirit in emergency services, particularly with response. What are some examples firsthand that you've seen of this?
[Commissioner] Look, I'll start with the whole team ethos is absolutely central to fire and emergency services. And I know our recruitment people, with recruitment of career firefighters, I say to them on a regular basis that just deliver us up team players. We want people who thrive in operating in teams because it is a team game: the response to emergencies. So, it's quite right to call it out. We want team players, whether you're coming in as a volunteer or you're trying to become a career firefighter, then if you're a team- orientated person, then you're the person that we want. Look, I think the Wooroloo fire during COVID, from memory, I think we were in a lockdown at the time.
[Silvana] Yep.
[Commissioner] [Chuckles] So it was a pretty complex time. The whole COVID piece was probably team orientated. What I saw through the State Disaster Council meetings, which were at one point happening daily, through the public sector and the ability of government and the broader public sector to sort of galvanise the workforce around…
The public sector often gets criticised, doesn't it, for being a bit staid. But what we saw - and DFES was a part of this - we were doing things that we would never envisage that we would do. We had career firefighters off driving ambulances because there were issues with staffing. And one thing or another, we were inspecting buildings at night to make sure they were conforming with the particular requirements of the day. And then the response to the Wooroloo fire was during a lockdown. And I actually think some of the volunteers thought it was a good thing because it was, "Do I get locked up at home for two weeks, or can I go out to a fire?" And yeah, I think maybe the second option was the better option. But look, yeah, the commitment there. And also the community at Wooroloo, that was a particularly difficult time for them. COVID was bad enough, but then, you know.
[Silvana] Yep. So during an emergency, community collaboration is so important. Can you give us some examples of that where you've seen community, DFES, other agencies work together?
[Commissioner] The Fitzroy flooding event in early 2023 and sort of late 2022, particularly challenging time in a community that was always going to struggle with that level of flooding that occurred. And I remember flying in there a day or two after the flooding first occurred, and the Fitzroy River was about 50km across as we flew in. And just the scale of it was unbelievable. And that community, over the course of the next 18 months, and I'm sure if you sat them down, they did things over that 18 months that they never thought they would do, as we did, and probably government, both State and. Federal and local as well, in terms of what we had to do to make sure we were helping them to the best that we could.
Certainly, there were problems along the way, no doubt about that. And, given the location of the community and the challenges with that, to manage the response over that period of time, some of the devastation of the houses up there was absolutely unbelievable. And just to - still work going on up there in terms of getting things back and improving them along the way. The year of the Voice was going on at the same time. So there were some particular challenges around that. So, yeah, that interface, I think, that we were able to achieve with that community meant that, with a few hiccups along the way, we were able to have some really great outcomes.
[Silvana] Is there a moment or incident in your career, whether you as a firefighter or you as Commissioner, that stands out to you?
[Commissioner] Probably with this one is the ex-Tropical Cyclone Seroja when it came through the Mid West. So, we don't often get cyclones that far down. And so the impact was very significant, particularly in Kalbarri. But then as it moved down sort of southeast of Kalbarri, the impact to those extensive number of farming communities and small rural towns as it exited through there was widespread, and a lot of very small communities impacted, a lot of small local governments that don't have large amount of resources. And so the complexities around that were significant and driven by just the impact or the size of the impacted area, I think, was particularly challenging. And the number of local governments that were involved, and the varying levels of damage that occurred, all the way from power through to homes and big farming enterprises that were impacted. So, the challenges on that one were significant. It was probably hot on the heels of the Wooroloo fire, where we lost over 80 homes, the fire that I spoke about previously. And so, I'm pretty sure it was the same year. And, so we had those two recovery events going on at the same time. And so that was particularly complex for the organisation.
[Silvana] So did that stand out for you in terms of response or was it the recovery that you felt?
[Commissioner] Oh, look, I think both. That was another event where we - certainly Seroja was another event where we pulled in resources from the eastern states and State Emergency Service and some fire and rescue people as well. So, once again, during COVID as well. So, yeah, the scale of the size of the area impacted made it very complex. And the response and then the sort of long tail recovery piece, really proud of what we were able to achieve there.
[Silvana] What is the best thing about being Commissioner?
[Commissioner] [Laughs]
[Silvana] Is there one thing?
[Commissioner] Oh, look, I think, we're here to serve. I think seeing really good outcomes for community are the good days. I think people call us often at the worst time that they may experience in their lives. They will ring 000 and want us to come out and help them. And that can be localised events like traffic accident or house fire, all the ways through to some of the bigger events that I've spoken about. And they all have meaning to that particular person that calls us. And I think that's the most important thing is making sure that we're supporting and serving the community the way that they're expecting us to.
And we consistently - our people consistently do great things; whether it's in the metropolitan area of Perth here with career firefighters or Marine Rescue volunteers in particularly difficult conditions out of Esperance or Windy Harbour or Albany or wherever it happens to be. And everything in between, there are fantastic people out there as part of DFES that are providing outstanding service to the community, and we shouldn't lose sight of that.
[Silvana] If you weren't Commissioner or if you never became a firefighter, is there another job that you could see yourself doing?
[Commissioner] Well, yeah. I think I'd make a really good sports commentator.
[Silvana] OK.
[Commissioner] Yeah. So, I could see myself perhaps commentating cricket. I don't think cricket would be too hard to commentate on, particularly in the Caribbean or somewhere there. I could see myself just waxing lyrical in front of a microphone on a daily basis.
[Silvana] Hey, this is your application. [Laughs] So knowing what you know now, what would you say to Darren Klemm, the graduate firefighter?
[Commissioner] Look, I think that to try things. So, what I feel has served me well during my career is that, while I was a bit slow to start with it, is be prepared to put yourself out there, so you can always make a case for not being ready to do something, whether it's promotion or a particularly difficult project that you might get yourself involved in, that you can always make a reason for not being involved or not going for a promotion. But the further I went on with my career, the greater appetite I had for that little bit of risk-taking around things that I might do where I may have felt that I didn't know everything about a particular matter, but I was prepared to get in there and have a go at it anyway. And I think, ultimately, over the period of my career, that served me pretty well.
[Silvana] Thank you. Thanks Commissioner, for joining me.
[Commissioner] Alright, thank you.
[Male Narrator] Are you looking for fast, accurate and official information that helps you to make informed decisions to stay safe during an emergency? The Department of Fire and Emergency Services Emergency WA app lets you set up watch zones for places important to you. So, if an emergency happens in your watch zone, you'll receive alerts and warnings. The best part? It's sent direct to your mobile device. Download DFES' Emergency WA app from the App Store or Google Play today.
[Silvana] This is Mics and Sirens. I'm your host, Silvana Pulitano. Thank you for joining us for this first series of the podcast. For more information on this episode, visit the show notes.